<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1573</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/24/99 7:57:59 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 24 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1573<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Geog<BR>
Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
Re Music<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re Spinal Mount Wild Ride<BR>
[none]<BR>
(no subject)<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: 1650BC (was Re: United States)<BR>
Re: England<BR>
RE: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: Far Future Terra<BR>
Re: Getting to cons<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
Re: An illustrated Traveller universe<BR>
local humor<BR>
Re: The Death of Q<BR>
Re: England<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:45:02 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Geog<BR>
<BR>
>>ISTR reading about a college in San Francisco testing its students on<BR>
>>geography.  About half of the students, at a _San Francisco_ college,<BR>
>>couldn't locate the Pacific Ocean on a map.  (Sorry, I don't have a<BR>
>>cite.)<BR>
><BR>
>Urban legend.  I'll bet my remaining teeth on it.<BR>
<BR>
Here's one I can attest to: At UAA, less than 10% of persons taking GEOG<BR>
205 (Elements of Physical Geography) can accurately place more than half of<BR>
the major landform items on the test at the start of the class. Less than<BR>
10% can place more than 9 of 10 at the end of the semester. Some of the<BR>
items include the following:<BR>
<BR>
The Pyrinees Mountains<BR>
The Rockies<BR>
The Orinoko R<BR>
The Nile R<BR>
The Danube R<BR>
The Dnieper R<BR>
The Amazon Basin<BR>
The Straits of Magellen and Hormuz<BR>
The Iberian Peninsula<BR>
The continents, and the 7 Oceans.<BR>
The Himalayan Mountains<BR>
The Ohio River<BR>
The Ils of Manhattan, Hawaii, Madagascar, New Zealand.<BR>
Accuracy is 1/4 inch on a 8.5x11 landscape sized Mercator projection. All<BR>
the rivers are already drawn, just label them; the mountain ranges likewise.<BR>
<BR>
Many of the students put NZ in Malaysia. The worst error I've seen was the<BR>
gent who put NZ  on Japan's southern island, or his study partner who put<BR>
it on Madagascar. (I'll admit, on the pretest, I did get NZ wrong... but<BR>
put confused it with the Island of Tasmania.)n I got a 93% on the Pretest,<BR>
and a 97% on the post test... I'd probably hit about 75% now.<BR>
<BR>
I've graded for this class, and did so for several years (4 years, in fact,<BR>
for 3 Proffessors).<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: I doubt that, even with the 2D large scale space maps, most<BR>
imperials would be able to accurately name more than the worlds in the<BR>
local subsector. or the subsectors that are either adjacent to their home<BR>
SS or in their home sector. Heck, given a hex number, half my players can't<BR>
find Wypoc! Even being told it's J2 from Regina. And regina is prominent in<BR>
my campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 23:57:00 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
> At 1:07 -0500 22/12/99, "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating<BR>
> >over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.<BR>
> >Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing<BR>
> >Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas 10?  If so, why don't<BR>
> >they fly them?<BR>
<BR>
They have better aircraft, and they do fly them.<BR>
<BR>
Though I don't see why you're holding up the DC10 for comparison, it was a<BR>
crap plane, a complete maintenance nightmare, and not particualry nice for<BR>
passengers either.<BR>
<BR>
Do you know how often the doors fell off those things ?<BR>
<BR>
Thing is, US manufacturers have been so heavily subsidizd by the US military<BR>
paying $3000 each for a plastic washer,  they can afford to flood the<BR>
market, sell at a loss and force most of the other aircraft manufacturers<BR>
out of business.<BR>
<BR>
And because the concept of free trade is alien to the so-called "land of the<BR>
free", they had no competition in the domestic market.<BR>
<BR>
> Not the Jumbo (at the moment) but the Airbus pretty much blows the<BR>
> other two away. Except when the USN is blowing it away :-/<BR>
<BR>
> >Why do all the International Airlines except Russia fly American planes?<BR>
<BR>
China doesn't fly America planes. Neither does India to any great extent.<BR>
Only the two most populous countries on earth.<BR>
<BR>
> Because the UK manufacturers collapsed out of the international<BR>
> market as it transitioned to jets when the DH Comet accidents<BR>
> happened,<BR>
<BR>
deHavilland are still manufacturing the "Dash" series, though that may be<BR>
deHaviilland Canada.<BR>
<BR>
 Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:56:16 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Music<BR>
<BR>
>"Just some good ole Droyns...Never mean any harm..."  <ducks><BR>
"Beats all you ever saw, been in trouble with grand-pa since the humans<BR>
were born..."<BR>
<BR>
ok, next line, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:05:55 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>>Well, I'm rather fond of the description in Heinlein's "Citizen of the<BR>
>>Galaxy". Basicly, while the computer does most of the work, the gunner is<BR>
>>constanly using his "trained intuition" to suggest options "What if he<BR>
>>changes course or accel like *this*?" "What if we do *that*?"<BR>
><BR>
>>Basicly, while the computer is working away on a move/response decision<BR>
>>tree (like the "look ahead" function in chess programs) the human is<BR>
>>suggesting which branches of the "tree" are most worth following (the<BR>
>>"value" function of the chess program).<BR>
><BR>
>I agree, and that is the goal for Gunnery IMTU, *but* just how to you<BR>
>roleplay that?  No, that's not the question..."How do you *roll* play<BR>
>that?"...that's closer to what I mean.<BR>
><BR>
>In short, what kind of mechanics could I put into a game that would<BR>
>capture that feel?<BR>
<BR>
Well, as far as "Roll Play", replace all the crew skills in to hit rolls<BR>
with computer based numbers. Then have the gunnery skill tasks be "Threat<BR>
Evaluation Tasks", like this one:<BR>
<BR>
To evaluate threat presentations: Difficult, Gunnery, Int, Combat Task. On<BR>
Success, use standard hit tasks. On Fail, increase difficulty by one on<BR>
defense tasks and fire tasks. On Critfail, no fire at chosen target. On<BR>
Crit Success, you've put the PIL on the AIL (PIL: Probable Intercept<BR>
Location, AIL: Actual Intercept Location).<BR>
<BR>
I've previously posted figures for figuring out shots to gaurantee<BR>
intercept of 1 shot of a voley of size X. Really, Traveller long ranges<BR>
should be based upon Gunnery and Intuition... Unfortunately, there is no<BR>
INTU stat in Traveller... and the calcs, at longer ranges, get horrendously<BR>
high shots required. CT was the worst. TNE wasn't bad there, but was rather<BR>
generous.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:09:48 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Spinal Mount Wild Ride<BR>
<BR>
>>"The spinal mount operator's seat - the wildest rollercoaster ride on the<BR>
>>ship!"<BR>
>>IIRC, The T4 Naval Architect's handbook<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>I never undertood that one. To quote:<BR>
><BR>
>"...and the workstation turns and banks along with the weapon."<BR>
><BR>
>Now, maybe it's me, but I had this crazy idea the spinal mount was so called<BR>
>because it was about two hundred metres long and embedded firmly into the<BR>
>spine of the ship. And if the ship turns, the weapon stations turns with it.<BR>
><BR>
>Can anyone throw in a plausible explanation?<BR>
><BR>
>NB<BR>
<BR>
Wild Ride? If the gunnery station is at either end of the weapon, you'll be<BR>
near the furthest reaches of a ship which is pitching and yawing to bring<BR>
your spinal gun into arc. Also, most spinal weapons are going to have<BR>
either magnetic and/or gravitic accelerations, which undoubtedly WILL leak.<BR>
Do I buy this? Not really. Why? Spinal mounts are fired from the Bridge<BR>
(Supp 5, AHL).<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:39:14 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>>If that's a typical attitude, it's no wonder someone (i.e., the USA) has<BR>
>>had to bail your country out of two major wars in this century.  You<BR>
>>know, I'm going to chop off your toe -- it's not an attack to you, just<BR>
>>to a very small part of you.<BR>
><BR>
>The Channel Islands are a part of Britain in the same way that Guam is a<BR>
>state in the United States of America.<BR>
<BR>
Guam isn't a state. It's a territory. Just like Puerto Rico, except for the<BR>
continental pressure to become a state and quite sopping funds like a cat<BR>
with milk. The RPR and Guam both have a single, non-voting rep in congress;<BR>
he does count for the electoral college, IIRC. The American Virgin Islands,<BR>
and American Samoa also are Territories. Citizens of the Territories are US<BR>
citizens, pay US income Tax, carry US passports, etc... they just don't<BR>
really THINK of themselves as US citizens. Alaska has only been a State<BR>
since about 1958 (+ or - 2 years)... the Territorial attitude is slowly<BR>
going away as the sourdoughs die off, or retire to florida....<BR>
<BR>
I did some research on the Chanell Is. when setting up an Ars Magica game<BR>
on them. From what I've read, they were, at the time, crown dependancies of<BR>
the Duchy of Normandy (in abeyance itself due to the majority of the land<BR>
having returned to French control); they are not part of England, but are<BR>
considered to be part of Great Brittain (and the UK, as well, but that is<BR>
more expansive a term, IIRC). They are closer to the mainland of Europe,<BR>
however, than to the Isle of Brittain. Beautiful, Rugged, and not ttotally<BR>
spoiled by mankind.... yet. It said they have 2 seats in commons (One<BR>
gurnsey and one for the other local gov't), and share one lords seat. IIRC,<BR>
it also mentioned that some or all of the seats were non-voting, but had a<BR>
voice. The books was from the 60's, though.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav? just look at all the subordinate worlds in any system... how will<BR>
they be percieved in the 3I? IMTU, if they are OWNED, then they are members<BR>
as part of their owning world's membership. If independant, then they are<BR>
ellgible (or interdictable) on their own.) Local attitudes may vary.<BR>
<BR>
Here's a scenario idea:<BR>
The PC's are on a subordinate (and owned) world when it rebells against the<BR>
mainworld, and then asks the noble in the party to relay their request to<BR>
the Imp Rep for separate membership in the Imperium... (I have used this<BR>
once, a long time ago...)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:37:44 +0100<BR>
From: Florian Merx <flow523@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: (no subject)<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:53:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
Actually it's Unisys Corp.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:45 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> CompuServe used some compression codes that were owned by, HP I think. <BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:56:10 +0000<BR>
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: 1650BC (was Re: United States)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
>On 23 Dec 99, at 20:56, Mark Watson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> >> Myceneans<BR>
>> Mycenae is probably a tributary of Crete in 1650. Somewhere<BR>
>> between then and 1550 Mycenae starts to become more dominant, but<BR>
>> Mycenae's height is around 1300. <BR>
><BR>
>This seems to depend on whether the person doing the writing thinks the <BR>
>Myceneans learnt from the Minoans by being subject, or just by <BR>
>importing Minoan artisans, etc, possibly by piracy and raiding. <BR>
>Personally I go for the Myceneans being a pack of pirates who copied <BR>
>things from their betters, and took over Crete after Thera wiped out <BR>
>most of the Minoan Navy and basing.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well:<BR>
<BR>
1) In the legend of Theseus, Mycenaean Athens is specifically described as a<BR>
tributary of Crete.<BR>
2) The first sophisticated buildings in Mycenae appear at this time, which<BR>
gives about 300 years of city life before the Mycenae becomes significant on<BR>
the international stage<BR>
3) There was certainly trade at this time (or maybe raiding, but see the next<BR>
point) since it can be proven that finds from Mycenae originated in Crete (type<BR>
of clay)<BR>
4) Mycenae is inland, making it an unlikely base for piracy. Its strength,<BR>
which is pretty obvious if you go there, is that you can see a long way in any<BR>
direction across the surrounding hills. There were a number of other<BR>
significant city states in the area at the time (Tiryns, Pylos, Thebes) and its<BR>
geographical strengths allowed it to dominate them. But while that was going on<BR>
there was probably tribute to the local superpower (Crete). That doesn't mean<BR>
that Mycenae was actually part of the Minoan empire though.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:27:31 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
At 02:59 AM 12/24/99 -0000, you wrote:<BR>
>>Doesn't what uniforms the bodies are wearing, what matters is whose flag<BR>
>>gets planted on top of the heap.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Is that really the important thing?<BR>
><BR>
>(I'm not saying you're wrong, certainly not in a Realpolitik sense.)<BR>
><BR>
>NB<BR>
<BR>
        From the military prospective....  you own the land that the grunt<BR>
with your shoulder flashes is standing on.  Even if he is standing on the<BR>
bodies of another platoon of grunts to get him there.  Unpleasant, but true.<BR>
<BR>
        So, yes, if you care about the outcome of the battle or war, than<BR>
that *is* the really important thing.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:04:46 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
At 04:10 PM 12/24/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>         _Campagin Cartographer 2_ and _City Designer 2_ by ProFantasy<BR>
>> Software  ( "http://www.profantasy.com").  Check out my websites<BR>
>> (see URL's<BR>
>> below) for examples of neat things (including deckplans) that you can do<BR>
>> with it.  *GREAT* software, better support.<BR>
>><BR>
>>         --Michel<BR>
>>         ( CC2/ CD2 Junkie )<BR>
>><BR>
>What do you use to convert the Campaign Cartographer files from their<BR>
>proprietary format to .gif or .jpg. I use Campaign Cartographer 2 Version<BR>
>5.9<BR>
><BR>
>Antony Farrell<BR>
<BR>
        I use the copy to clipboard function and then paste the image into<BR>
Photoshop for saving as a GIF or JPG.  I am running v6.033, JFYI.  Take a<BR>
look at my AD&D site (URL below) if you want to see some examples of whole<BR>
maps done JPG'd that way...  I am going to start using PNG, though, as the<BR>
JPG process is not kind to detail work.<BR>
<BR>
        You are aware of the CC2 mailing list, yes?  Lots of cool tips and<BR>
tricks and folks bantering "how-to's" back and forth.  If you have questions<BR>
about CC2, it is an invaluable resource.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			       ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Cyberpunk:  	"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"<BR>
	Traveller:		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"<BR>
	AD&D:		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/adnd_eurania"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:08:40 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Future Terra<BR>
<BR>
In message <3.0.6.32.19991221204537.00812830@mail.powersurfr.com>, cos<BR>
90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> writes<BR>
>Still, there are those who believe that the evidence in favour of "global<BR>
>warming" is sketchy at best, and that the current destabilization of <BR>
>global climate we're experiencing may be the prelude to the next Ice Age<BR>
>already...<BR>
<BR>
Shame about the CO2 levels though.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:38:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Getting to cons<BR>
<BR>
When HP flew me from Portland, Or to Boston, Ma (Portland International to<BR>
Logan) the round trip cost over 1,400!!!<BR>
No, not even first class.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 5:28 AM<BR>
Subject: Getting to cons<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Tying this thread to "the US is really big" thread...it's tough for us to<BR>
> >all get together.  Those that are west have a problem getting east and<BR>
> >vise versa.  Heck those of us southeast have a problem getting to the<BR>
> >upper midwest.<BR>
> ><BR>
> Just to add my Cr0.02, Some US types can't even get to anywhere else in<BR>
the<BR>
> US without MAJOR air fares... Alaska and Hawaii. For all intents, we may<BR>
as<BR>
> well be  a foreign country (We pay the international flights tax on<BR>
flights<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:33:05 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
>>"Just some good ole Droyns...Never mean any harm..."  <ducks> __<BR>
><BR>
>Been in trouble with Grandpa, since the day they were born!<BR>
><BR>
><running for cover><BR>
<BR>
"These are not the Droyne you're looking for."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:33:14 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> CompuServe used some compression codes that were owned by, HP I think.<BR>
> CompuServe has basically said anyone that wants can use the GIF format,<BR>
> but HP is less generous, no that's not fair.  Let's just say they don't<BR>
> want their intellectual property to be public domain.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. CompuServe used LZW compression which is patented. I don't know who<BR>
filed the original patent, but it's currently owned by Unisys.<BR>
<BR>
See http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/<BR>
<BR>
> As I understand it, folks that write programs that implement the GIF<BR>
> format need to get a licence.  <BR>
<BR>
Yes.<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know if it costs anything, but<BR>
> there is some feeling against even a no-cost licence.  <BR>
<BR>
It depends. License fees, are always negotiable. It just depends on<BR>
whether or not you can make Unisys notice that you exist.<BR>
<BR>
> The other shoe, so<BR>
> to speak, is the rumored (or real) assersion that any GIF'ed file posted<BR>
> on the internet must have been produced by a licenced program or it's<BR>
> removal can be forced.<BR>
<BR>
Pure bullshit. The process is patented, not the results of the process.<BR>
<BR>
If I write code that implements LZW compression (jn ANY form, not just GIF<BR>
image compression) than I need a UNISYS license. However, if I can create a <BR>
valid GIF file without using LZW (it is possible, though not totally desirable)<BR>
then I'm ok.<BR>
<BR>
It's akin to a patent on a cheese production process. The patent is not on <BR>
_cheese_, it's on the process. Though patenting cheese would be cool. :)<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think any of this is a concern for non-commerical use, but this<BR>
> has been perking along in the background for several years.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. <BR>
<BR>
> PNG is partly an effort to replace GIF with an open system without the<BR>
> baggage of GIF.  I don't know a lot about PNG's licencing status, but I<BR>
> suspect it's GPL.  Those that like it, seem to like it a lot..like Linux.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, with lots of rabid, tunnel-visioned devotees. GIF is way too popular<BR>
to either throw out or replace. The patent will run out eventually, just be<BR>
patient. :) <BR>
<BR>
> If all the browsers and paint/drawing programs would support it we could<BR>
> move on to it, but...<BR>
<BR>
But no one really cares. *shrug*<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:44:46 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
>> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating<BR>
>> >over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.<BR>
>> >Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing<BR>
>> >Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas 10?  If so, why don't<BR>
>> >they fly them?<BR>
<BR>
 I came up with an in-depth comment about inernational trade here but in<BR>
reality it comes down to "No one is gloating, get real"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:50:01 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
Maybe that would be a good venue. Have you asked Jae?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of CHARLES<BR>
WALKER<BR>
Sent: 22 December 1999 20:15<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:25:40 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
Maybe we should all get together for a game - somewhere neutral, like<BR>
Todmorden, which *should* be in Lancashire again <g>.<BR>
<BR>
        If we could make that Hebden Bridge, Jae Campbell of Signal GK<BR>
zine<BR>
lives there!<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,<BR>
and Death walks at his left hand...<BR>
UTUP.<BR>
0609-A666A667-5-5-2<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:49:16 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
At the moment, I have nothing running - I've been soloing with Pocket<BR>
Empires. But it looks like there's a lot of us, so someone must be<BR>
able to run a game. Any offers? If there are, I'd be happy to try and<BR>
find us a venue.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of i Steve<BR>
Sent: 22 December 1999 19:17<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe we should all get together for a game - somewhere neutral, like<BR>
>Todmorden, which *should* be in Lancashire again <g>.<BR>
<BR>
I'm up for that - what are you refereeing Mark?<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:41:53 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: An illustrated Traveller universe<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> puts forth into the ether<BR>
>If anyone else is interested, and not many people are 'cause VRML is nearly<BR>
>universally reviled, There's a really nice program called Spazz3D for<BR>
>putting together things in VRML. It's relatively easy to use, and Blaxxun's<BR>
>Avatar Studio is quite nice for putting people into your world. To tie that<BR>
>back to the original subject of this thread, Avatar studio allows you to<BR>
>select from several skin colors as well customize the body type and facial<BR>
>features, so you can turn out Vilani who are dark-skinned, or light skinned,<BR>
>or anywhere in between!<BR>
<BR>
Have you tried Metacreation's Poser?  Very nice human modeling program.<BR>
Has horse, dog & Raptor figures as well.  There is also a MAC version.<BR>
You can vary skin tones and morph figures.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
By the way, there is no year zero, (not in the Gregorian calendar)<BR>
and the third Millennium starts in 2001, not 2000.<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:42:06 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com><BR>
Subject: local humor<BR>
<BR>
Kenji puts out into the ether:<BR>
>There's an old joke hereabouts (I'm told) about why the "8 items or less"<BR>
>express cashiers' lines at all the shops in Cambridge are so long and<BR>
>slow:  MIT students can't read, Harvard students can't count.<BR>
<BR>
The MIT students can read, it's just that they are usually too stressed to <BR>
take the time.<BR>
I have faith the Harvard students too.  When the offer letters start coming <BR>
in, you'll find that they can count which number is higher with no <BR>
trouble.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
By the way, there is no year zero, (not in the Gregorian calendar)<BR>
and the third Millennium starts in 2001, not 2000.<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 07:38:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Death of Q<BR>
<BR>
>Doesn't it strike anyone as faintly suspicious that they had the<BR>
>replacement<BR>
>character ready to go *before* Desmond's death?  I smell the<BR>
>Templars.<BR>
<BR>
You forget the organization you are dealing with...<BR>
<BR>
Q isn't dead. His death was faked to free him for other work.<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 02:57:39 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
> If that's a typical attitude, it's no wonder someone (i.e., the USA) has<BR>
> had to bail your country out of two major wars in this century.  You<BR>
> know, I'm going to chop off your toe -- it's not an attack to you, just<BR>
> to a very small part of you.<BR>
<BR>
I had a response to this all typed up, but I think I'll just sit on my hands<BR>
and suggest you may wish to read some history books instead.<BR>
<BR>
    (Whew!)<BR>
    I hate to make contencsious statements on a list I've just joined but I<BR>
can't help commenting how offensive that remark is to Australians. Suffice<BR>
to say that it's understood that everyone on every side did the best they<BR>
could in that conflict. 50 years on I'm glad that many Germans are my<BR>
friends and I'd defend them the same way I'd defend my country.<BR>
    I'd just like to wish everyone in every country a happy Christmas and<BR>
remember that in WWI the officers of the opposing sides met in no mans land<BR>
and agreed that it didn't make any sense.<BR>
    Jim (whose antecedents fought on both sides)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1573<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-za01.mx.aol.com (rly-za01.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.97]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:57:59 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-za01.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:57:40 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA96295;<BR>
	Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:57:29 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:57:03 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA96247<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:57:03 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:57:03 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912241557.KAA96247@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1573<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
